Performance Factors & The Difference Between Pros vs Joes

Getting better at mountain biking is all about performance. Often in mountain bike coaching, we focus on skills as a target to improve performance. While this approach may be effective in some cases, technical skills may not be the factor holding a rider back. We call these factors the performance factors, and they impact riders differently depending on their stage of development. In this episode, we dig into these factors, how they impact ordinary joes differently from pros, and how we as coaches can use these factors to increase performance.

In the show, we discuss:

• Defining Pros vs Joes to highlight what factors impact riding other than skills
• What is performance? How do we understand this concept on bikes and in coaching?
• The relationship between performance and motivation
• The Six Performance Factors:  Equipment, Environment, Psychological, Physical, Tactical, Technical
• Where do we start if we want to make an immediate change?
• What are the timelines for change?
• How do the performance factors work together?
• What really holds us back from performance?
• What does pressure to execute do to performance?
• Why so psychological factors underlie most other factors?
• Why is strength such an important component?
• How is efficiency related to performance?
• How do technical skills appear in performance?

And of course, the donut of the day!

Thanks to our Season 4 partners:

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome to Donuts and Bikes, the mountain bike coaching podcast. Your hosts are Paul Howard and me, Christian Jackson, and we're here to discuss the skills, techniques, and tactics we've used to train and mentor the riders and coaches we've worked with over the last 20 years. In this episode, we're digging into performance factors and how they differ between ordinary riders and the professionals.

SPEAKER_02: 0:36

Yeah, all right. So this week's episode is, the title is Performance Factors for Joes vs. Pros. So Christian and I will dig straight into it. We were just talking and kind of defining what do we mean by Joes or average Joes. And yeah, male, female, you know, kind of gender neutral. But really for us, you know, I was talking to Christian about like, I kind of relative to pro riders, you know, Valley Hole or Mitch Rapalado or whoever it is, I feel like I'm an average Joe, right? And I feel like the term average Joe is essentially a passionate term amateur rider that rides once, twice, maybe three times a week. But essentially there's pros and then there's the rest of us a little bit. How does that sort of fit with what you're thinking, Christian? Would you consider yourself an average Joe, a semi-pro, a pro? I mean, these are all just labels and they're kind of silly labels, but sometimes when you have You've got to break things down, right? So sometimes you need some kind of label to define things.

SPEAKER_01: 1:55

For sure, yeah. I think this is a really important distinction for this topic. On one hand, you've got a pro as anybody that's getting paid to do what they do. But clearly, when you talk about World Cup racers, professional mountain bikers, there's a big distinction there. between them and us, the rest of us. I think that within the average Joe, there is a continuum there as well, just as there is within the pro fields as well. For sure. You've got different abilities even within that. But how does this Joe's versus pros, how are we going to connect this to performance factors? Let's start there.

SPEAKER_02: 2:42

Yeah, well... Today we wanted to really dig into what are the sort of core performance factors in terms of you wanting to improve on a mountain bike, you want to get better. There's these kind of six core, what we call performance factors that are going to help you do that, going to help you improve your performance. And I thought it'd be kind of a cool topic for discussion to discuss these performance factors and how an average show, You know, your everyday mountain biker, amateur racer perhaps. I kind of think of that term average Joe as anywhere from like a strong intermediate to like an expert rider that just loves riding bikes. But we're not, like you said, we're not getting paid to race. We're not getting paid to ride. We just love biking. And then, you know, what is that group? What's that sort of spectrum of humans doing to... improve their biking versus your typical pro rider where it's whether it's sort of enduro or cross country or downhill like what are they doing to improve performance on their bike and the reality is that all of us are looking at the same kind of core six performance factors but what are we doing with each one of those and how much are we focusing on any one of those that's where the differences start to come in so it's kind of cool like a lot of this stuff it's cool to see that actually we're working on the same things but when and how much and how we do it that's where the differences start to creep in so maybe let's start off with I think sometimes this word performance is an interesting word. I hear it in the winter with snowboarding and training snowboard instructors. We hear all the time this word performance. We kind of know what it means off the top of our head, but it's also a pretty ambiguous word. That's a pretty broad stroke. What do we really mean by performance? Maybe, Christian, if we start there and what's What's your version of performance? How would you kind of define that label?

SPEAKER_01: 5:06

I think performance boils down to being able to get done what needs to get done when it matters the most.

SPEAKER_02: 5:16

Cool.

SPEAKER_01: 5:17

So, you know, on a bike, when the rider is being challenged, whether it's by the clock or by the terrain, are they able to execute to their fullest in the moment when it really matters. And I would add to this that there's an important balance between effort and ease. When you see a rider that is in this performance mode, like they're putting in effort, but it's very effortless looking when it's happening.

SPEAKER_02: 5:53

Yeah, it's the efficiency side, I guess.

UNKNOWN: 5:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 5:57

Totally. You know, there's a there's a mastery, you know, mastery is another word we could, you know, maybe synonymous a bit with with performance, but there's a mastery there of applying all this, all of the skills and the skill set as well as the as incorporating, to some degree, the performance factors, you know, that's, I guess what we're getting into here is that, for some riders, some performance factors are going to matter more than others.

SPEAKER_00: 6:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:26

And the reason that is largely due to where a writer falls on this continuum of their development.

SPEAKER_02: 6:35

Yeah. Yeah, it sounds to me too that you're kind of, really you're talking about execution, like in terms of like the ability to do what I need to do when I need to do it. So, you know, thinking of some examples like, like the average rider might be like, I'm learning how to do some drops or a new drop. And so on that day, at that time, performance could be defined as you're going to do that drop and get the timing right, get the speed right, you know, execute smoothly. And that might be quantified as performance that day. Or, I mean, even for me the other day, there's a climb, a fairly early season, I'm just trying to get, get into shape and there's a climb here that if I can basically get to the top without putting a foot down or stopping because it's a really physical climb then that I could kind of quantify as that's the performance I'm looking for early season I want to get to a point where I can get up that climb without having to stop and catch my breath right like so it's ability to execute when we need to and I think you know for a lot of Amateur riders, they tend to be a little bit more process goals mixed in with some outcome goals. I want to learn these skills so that I can hit that drop or I want to get a little fitter so I can get up that climb without stopping. And then pro riders are arguably is in a way the same, but the process and the outcomes are maybe different. Maybe the outcome is winning more. a race or getting on a podium but the process still might be like the same thing I need to get a little stronger so I can apply maximum effort for the whole run and not just 90% of the run or it might be yeah working on the same some skills so I can get that feature or that line or those types of features or those types of lines more confidently um In my race run, if it's cross-country races, they're often working on skills to develop descending techniques, so like rock gardens, drops, and trying to do those more easily with less effort. So they might be working on similar skills to the average show that's trying to get that drop off. But the process might be similar, but then the outcome goals might be quite different. But I think it all ties back to that that core, um, word that you mentioned before that kind of just, can you do what you want to do? Can you execute at, at the time they need to execute? Is it, is that's a nice way of looking at performance and, um, yeah, it's cool. It's a good place to start.

SPEAKER_01: 9:28

Yeah. I, what additional note here is that I think that for, for all writers, performance is a result and it's not a given, um, I think, especially when we're, we're first learning something new, whether it's hitting drops or jumps or, you know, trying to get up a specific kind of climb that we want to perform, but we may not have all the pieces in place yet to do that. And so there's the process is really important here and understanding that performance then becomes a result of what you, the effort that you put in to get to the end goal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:10

Yeah, I really like that. And that reminds me a little bit too of the why, like why performance-based goals are important. Because as soon as you put the word performance in, what you're typically doing just by the inherent sort of definition of the word performance is you're raising the game. You know, I can do two kick-ups and I want to do 20 kick-ups just with soccer because... Huxley's just getting into soccer for the first time. So he's trying to learn kick-ups at the moment and trying to sort of see how many times he can kick the ball in the air without it touching the ground. So, you know, I think that that's a nice way of sort of talking to the why. You know, we talked about what performance might be and why. And I think it's the reason why performance-based goals are so important is that it's a chance for you to recognize this is what I can do right now. And this is what I would like to do in the future. And that goal of what you would like to do in the future, if it's performance-based, is typically harder, faster, longer, more. You're trying to challenge yourself, essentially. These performance-based goals are really important just to, apart from anything else, build that intrinsic motivation and get you as a rider or as a coach continually assessing your skill set and looking for areas of strength and areas for improvement and digging into those areas of strength and continuing those but really finding those areas of improvement trying to balance out the equation so that you can increase your skill and experience that and then hopefully like you said achieve that result whether it's the the 10 kick-ups or the a big drop off or my first race for the first time or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01: 12:03

Right. I think that there are parallel tracks here of performance on one side and motivation on the other. And they're linked in really important ways. And I think that also... starting with performance in mind, like if that is, you know, one of the goals, um, that, that creates a lot of satisfaction.

SPEAKER_00: 12:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:32

For riders, like being able to, to put, put the work in, to perform at whatever level that it is that their goal is at, um, creates that sense of satisfaction and makes us want to ride more.

SPEAKER_02: 12:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:43

It get better.

SPEAKER_02: 12:44

Well, achieving any result, like you set yourself a goal and you achieve that result. Like that's a great way to build motivation. And then it's like rinse and repeat. Well, pick another goal and go again kind of thing. Yeah, I like that. And in a way, I also think it's the flip too. It's like to set the goals in the first place, to have an awareness of what your current performance is and where you would like your performance to be. You need some motivation even before that goal setting. because the motivation can kind of bring that self-awareness. And through that self-awareness, that's where the goal setting starts to kick in because you're like, it's pretty easy for Huxley in soccer right now because he's newer to it. So when he goes on the pitch, he can pretty quickly see that he's not as good as the other kids because most of the other kids have been on the team since they were like four. So he's definitely playing catch up. And so he has this automatic goal setting and motivation straight away because he can see the difference. He's like, oh, pants, like, um, they're clearly way better than me, but you know, what's, and so that's motivating right now. And he's putting in a lot of effort, like goes back to that point you said earlier, like effort is so key. If you want to improve your performance, yeah, you need the motivation, but you just need to put in the work. And, um, So that's kind of a, I like the way you say that, the way that kind of performance and motivation is, they're really like two pillars, two streams that are kind of feeding each other.

SPEAKER_01: 14:19

Yeah, totally. I think that to link this into the performance factors themselves, it's important to note for our listeners that usually as coaches, we think about our work as being a coach or being an instructor, we Our default is to go to skills.

SPEAKER_02: 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:39

You know, looking at what's going to help our rider most while they need to work on their stability or they need to work on how gradually they can apply their brakes in this situation or whatever. But there's these other factors beyond the skills themselves that, to a degree, have an impact on their actual riding and their learning skills. and ultimately performance. So maybe let's break down an overview of the six performance factors and then we'll dive into it. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 15:15

let's do it. Thanks for listening, everyone. Christian and I are stoked to be doing this podcast. If you're enjoying the show and want to support us, please take a moment to share our podcast with your friends, families, colleagues or neighbours by letting them know where they can find us and listen for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever they get their podcasts. The more love we get, the more episodes we can create. Alrighty, get back to the show. For us, these have been in... canada coaching language in different sports for quite a long time and and i see it in different organizations around the world as well in new zealand and i was actually looking one in the uk the other day like there might be some slightly different labels but generally speaking um that doesn't matter where you are they tend to go back to these same six core factors and they are basically um E-E-T-T-P-P. So equipment, environment, technical, tactical, and physical and psychological. And essentially, yeah, you want to improve. You can wait for better weather. The environment one is the hardest one because the thing with these performance factors is that some you can improve and you have control over. Some you don't have control over. Some you can manipulate better. Pretty quickly. And some you can't. Some are definitely long term. So environment, not as much control over it. Equipment, a lot of control over that. You can make changes very quickly or you can make changes over the long term. And I'll just run through them quickly. So environment, equipment, technical, tactical. Technical is the skills coaching that we all know and love in the mountain bike coaching world. We're going to improve your stability, your position on the bike, your braking skills, your line choice, your pumping, your steering, whatever it might be, right? Tactical, a little bit more of the decision-making process. So it blurs the line with some mental components for sure, but definitely the decision-making process, right? Shall I choose to do this? Shall I choose to do that? Shall I do three warm-up laps or one warm-up lap? Then we've got things like technical, tactical, and then physical and psychological. So physical is sort of the bread and butter of a lot of mountain bike coaching, which is essentially the strength and conditioning, the nutrition, Basically building the engine, the machine that sits on top of the bike. And then the psychological, which as we know, mountain biking is a huge component. We can have great technique and be strong and fit and bikes set up well and good weather, good trail conditions that day. But if we're not there mentally and we're not ready to... go on that ride or do that climb or try that rock roll. You know, if the mind's not there, it's pretty hard for everything else to follow. So, I mean, that's a quick, fast sort of run through those six factors, environment, equipment, technical, tactical, physical, and psychological. But let's maybe sort of dig into those and how You know, if we start with kind of the average Joe, just sort of your amateur, strong intermediate to advanced, expert rider, generally speaking, if they want to improve their performance for you as a coach, Christian, what... which one of those or two of those or three of those do you spend the most time with as a coach and why are you sort of unpacking that performance factor more than, say, another one?

SPEAKER_01: 19:26

I might start with equipment. It's one that we can manipulate immediately to larger degrees, to smaller degrees. Like you said, the environment really can't change that at all except to wait for a different day. Which

SPEAKER_02: 19:47

is part of it too, right? Like super hot, maybe I'll ride earlier in the morning before it gets hot, right?

SPEAKER_01: 19:52

Yeah. But even if you think about the technical skills or tactical skills or physical, like it takes a lot more time to make changes in these. And so making sure the bike is set up optimally for a rider based on the conditions and what they're trying to do, I think is one of the best places to start. I think one of the important questions here is to what degree does the equipment matter for the average Joe or the pro? And in some ways for your average Joe, the equipment matters a lot. If you think about it in really simple terms, a pro could get on a bike that's wrong, that's the wrong size for them, that's not set up properly for them and still be able to perform, you know, within some parameters, right? You know, versus You know, for us average Joes, you know, for us to ride a bike that's two sizes too small and to try to perform, it's going to be way more challenging, for instance.

SPEAKER_02: 21:03

Yeah, well, and I think of it like, you know, if you think of it as these six things, it's like a graph and you've got like six columns in a graph, you know, like the physical and the technical columns for a pro. I mean, they're going to be closer to, you know, say we just call it 10 out of 10 right 10 is the max you can get right so the physical and the technical is going to be pretty high up there nine point something probably for a pro um and so those performance factors are so much stronger it helps overcome any weaknesses that they have with the others so if the equipment's weaker um they can handle it better so um however like if you flip the flip that performance goal around and if the performance goal is not just to ride the bike but to win a race now you could almost argue that actually the equipment's going to have a bigger impact on the pro rider because um their performance goal is so high and they've done all they can with their physical conditioning at that point and their technical development so the one thing that will probably make a biggest difference at that race weekend is they can't suddenly do push-ups and get stronger or change their technique on the race weekend but they might be able to find two or three percent or one percent on the bike because it is so easy to change so it's it's interesting how like When you look at what does performance mean, and you kind of define that, if your average share a lot of the time, the performance is, I just want to ride smoothly and safely. And if that, you transfer that goal to a pro rider, yeah, I mean, they could take a Walmart bike probably and ride it down some gnarly trail. And your average rider probably wouldn't be able to do that because they don't have the strength or the skill. But would they be able to take that Walmart bike and then go win a race?

UNKNOWN: 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 23:07

No. So changing that performance goal will kind of change how a rider, whether they're a pro or a Joe, how much weight or emphasis they'll put onto one of those performance factors. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01: 23:25

I like that. And I think that for the pro on race day, the equipment does matter because the margins are so small. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 23:34

exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:35

you know, one second difference is, you know, podium or no podium in some cases, you know, let alone, you know, let alone which, you know, this split seconds. So, you know, having tire pressure, for instance, absolutely refined, you know, and the correct number of volume spacers in your suspension for the track. And I mean, all that stuff, it can mean, you know, higher level of performance or not.

UNKNOWN: 24:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:05

Versus your average Joe with equipment, the margins aren't there. If you're just wanting to ride ridgeline smoothly, which is a noble goal in and of itself, there's a broader swath of things that equipment-wise will make sense for that.

SPEAKER_02: 24:28

That's why I love training coaches on bike setup and equipment because then they can obviously help their students with that piece as well because like you said like you know even for skills coaches we're gonna a lot of the time we're gonna work on body position like I say or breaking skills or whatever it might be or angulation or whatever because you can change technique in a shorter time frame that than for example that the strength you know a half day lesson or a weekend camp we can do quite a lot with people's technique we can really take that performance factor and take it from a four to a six over over a weekend pretty realistically but we can't take the strength and conditioning from a four to a six over a weekend right and that's that's essentially why skills coaching exists is because we can we can highlight that factor and change it and But if we're doing all of that work, but the suspension's too stiff or the tires have too much air in them or the stem's ridiculously high or something like that, that can make a big impact too. And like you said, the reason I love the equipment as a sort of performance factor to work on is it's so quick and easy to change if we know what we're doing with it. And one of the common things we kind of get... coaches to think about when they're working with their students is baseline settings and being confident changing the setups of their students' bikes because more often than not you think of your average sort of novice to intermediate maybe even advanced riders the amount of advanced riders we have at Whistler Bike Park that are jumping A-line that just have horrible bikes and you don't do anything special you just take the bike to a good baseline like let's take that 32 psi tie and bring it back to a 25 26 psi let's take the the ridiculously high handlebar and just maybe lower it a touch or whatever it might be you know maybe it's just um the rebound's way too slow so we're not going to make it fast we're just going to bring it back to kind of a simple baseline where it's it's quick but it doesn't um kind of bounce you after you compress the rear shock so Baseline settings, a lot of the time, through my experience the last 20 years or so, I'd say eight or nine times out of 10, you take someone's bike and you put it back to what you would class as a baseline setting for their weight, their skill level, their bike. It's usually better than what they have. And it's you can go to a warm-up lap go to two or three laps or whether it's a cross-country ride just go ride for another half hour or maybe loop a little trail and the joy i see in just making them feel more confident comfortable consistent on their bike and we haven't done any braking drills or stability body position drills or anything so um Yeah, leaning into, I mean, it goes back to the previous episode, the start of season four, we did an episode on coaching versus instructing. And largely that's to do with just educating coaches on these performance factors and trying to find ways to improve people's riding in addition to the technical skills, which is obviously a huge piece of it, but not the only piece.

UNKNOWN: 28:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:10

Cool. How about we unpack a bit of the environmental factors?

SPEAKER_02: 28:16

Yeah, that one's a tricky one. I think for you, how does that impact a pro rider versus your average non-pro rider? How does the environment impact us differently to pros?

SPEAKER_01: 28:39

I think... To start us in this one in a generality, I think for average Joes, it has more of an impact and potentially more of a negative impact when the environment is adverse versus a pro rider has developed themselves with their strength, with their skills, with their adaptability, the mental side of things. to deal with more varied conditions and know how to execute when the rocks are wet, when it's muddy, when the trail's frozen, you know, whatever it is. And, you know, for most of us average Joes, when conditions are bad, we just don't ride. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 29:31

Yeah. And that... We just stay up. Yeah, we just stay up. Totally. And, yeah, growing up from the UK, we definitely had a lot of time in the winter as well. We totally could have gone riding, but you just get fed up with being wet and muddy after a while. But at the same time, let's all say some of the most fond memories I have is riding bikes in the woods and just sliding down ridiculously muddy trails. on the backside with crappy crappy tires from the 90s but anyway uh less nostalgia but one thing i really like about the equipment factor is how it really brings all the other factors into play and that's i think that's a cool thing to highlight is like just like we have six skills technical skills and we have these six performance factors we we we isolate them And we discuss them separately. But the reality is they're all working together all the time. So the environment's a great one because people are like, well, you can't control it. But you can put in the work to understand how your equipment can change in different environments. You can put in the work to make you stronger and fitter so you can ride in different environments. You can put in the technical work. You can, you know, if you live in a hot... Well, not hot, but you live in a drier climate and you tend to not ride when it's wet. Well, put in the work and ride every time it's wet or do what world cup riders do. You know, cross country and downhill, you'll often hear the North American riders struggle when they go to Europe for the first time because they're not used to the wet, steep, rooty roads. slippery rocky terrain as much as as much as the europeans are so how do they train that they train that they they go to places and they actively try and ride in as varied conditions as possible and very terrain as possible so that this environment piece you know because we all know it if if the trail's great if the condition's great you know brown powell you know how much better you ride. You're just more confident. You know you've got grip. And nothing's changed that day other than it's just perfect conditions or like a freshly built trail. I mean, how good do we all feel every time you ride a freshly built trail? You're like, this is sick. I'm an amazing rider. You haven't actually got better. It's just the environment for you that day is perfect. So the environment is allowing you to perform. It's allowing your technical skills and your strength to kind of flourish right so

SPEAKER_01: 32:05

right

SPEAKER_02: 32:05

so yeah understanding like bike setup and actively training to be confident and consistent in different environments whether that's the weather conditions or whether it's the trail surface the terrain type i mean they would all sort of factor into the environment even time of day like some races you know if you've got jet lag you've got to get up early or you've got to wait and then you've got to race at three o'clock. Some people have natural kind of cycles through the day where three o'clock for me, I suck. I just want to lie on the couch and sleep. And it's like, you've got to race at three o'clock. Like for me, that is naturally the worst time of day to do anything. So there's all these kinds of things that kind of come into the performance factor of environment, but understanding how the other factors can be used to sort of overcome it is key.

SPEAKER_01: 33:02

Three o'clock is a good time for tea and a biscuit. I

SPEAKER_02: 33:07

mean, it's donut and tea time, isn't it, really? I get why the Spanish do it. I really do. They just have that siesta. And, yeah, I feel like the rest of the world should follow suit. But, anyway.

SPEAKER_01: 33:22

Yeah, for sure. You know, I had a thought here. The combination of these... The layering of these factors, I think, is really cool. And the environmental factors, whether it's the weather itself, the terrain, or the current conditions, by training in a variety of different environmental situations, you're actually training psychological

SPEAKER_02: 33:48

skills. Huge, yeah. Huge.

SPEAKER_01: 33:51

Right? So your adaptability, for instance. One of the ways to get better at riding is is to ride in varied conditions.

SPEAKER_02: 34:02

Yeah. Would

SPEAKER_01: 34:04

you agree with that? Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 34:05

totally. Because it's not just your technical adaptability. Am I physically able to ride in different conditions? Because, for example, when I go to Australia, a lot of the time it's really dry and loose, much drier and looser sometimes than where I typically ride in Whistler. And it takes a day or two to get used to it. And you do have to remember to not use the front brake as much and relax and let the bike go more and disconnect with the bike more. There's these little technical things that you just, it's the same if I go back to UK and it's super slippery and wet or from riding routes here. There are these technical things you need to learn for different conditions. But psychologically, I think you hit the nail on the head. There's this psychological adaptation and resilience. Every time it rains, you can see there's certain riders that light up. They get excited, like Reece Wilson, Sam Hill used to do it. If it rained, he was just walking around the pits quietly grinning because he's like, sweet, I'm going to smash them all. And for sure, that's because there's a technical... advantage he has that but alongside that technical advantage is the mental advantage whereas other riders it might rain and then doubt you know hesitation yeah lack of confidence so even if it's just three percent less confidence like i'm still confident but they're not as confident as they are when it's prime conditions right so i think the the psychological cool factor is I mean, all of these factors are always there, but if you want to improve anything, it's hard to improve all of them at once. So that's why we isolate them. That's why we try and talk about them separately. And then in terms of a coaching plan, you can pick one or two and come up with a plan.

SPEAKER_01: 35:56

I think that's a good bridge to psychological factors on their own. You know, and here the... kind of the ones that psychological factors that rise to the, to the top, I think confidence is a, is a key one, uh, adaptability or resiliency being another key one. And then overall mindset. I'm curious to know what, when you hear the word mindset in terms of mountain biking, like what kinds of things do you think about with a, with a mindset?

SPEAKER_02: 36:30

For me and, and, and, you know, studying this a little bit and learning a lot on this in recent years, like a lot of time the mindset is, it's like a structured training program for the brain. You know, we might have a training program to get stronger upper body and stronger lower back, whatever it might be. And there's certain exercises we need to do and we need to be disciplined and get it and put in the work. Otherwise we don't get stronger. And the mindset, often so much with the mind is we go along through life And we react and adapt. But rarely with our mind do we try and make sort of tangible decisions and have purposeful practice with trying to make our mind do or not do something. So the mindset is often something like, for example, and this is where pro riders are arguably better at this because either through sort of anecdotal kind of experience or they actually have a sports mindset psychology person looking after them. They have a sports coach looking after them and supporting them is they'll go in and they'll practice things like positive self-talk. They'll practice, they'll have sort of a two-step process to dealing with setbacks or three-step process, whatever it might be. And they'll have these little bit of a daily or a weekly routine, whether it's journal writing, whether it's self-affirmation. And sometimes that mindset can just be pre-programmed so that when they get into the event, whether it's a race or a training ride or whatever, maybe it's a sponsor trip or something or a testing camp, whatever happens during that event, they've almost got a set of procedures to follow mentally. If something good happens or Don't get too excited. Stay focused. Stay looking at the process. Or if something bad happens, stay positive. Focus on yourself. Don't focus on others, whatever it might be. So they're the kind of things I think about with mindset. And the psychological factor is something through experience. The more you ride, the more hours you spend riding, the more you're going to be learning all of these six factors together. either purposefully or just organically by the simple act of doing the sport. And the more you do it, the more you're going to build some of these mental tools. And I think the difference between sort of the average Joe and the pro is the pro, hopefully, if they're at that point in their racing, is they are being purposeful about monitoring things. This performance factor, the psychological factor, they're bringing more self-awareness to this topic so that they can find areas of strength and areas of improvement and then come up with a plan to improve. And that's essentially the same recipe that you attach to all of these performance factors. To improve it, you need to know what it is and you need to know stuff about it to sort of label a non-technical term like if you want to improve writing technique you can't really do that unless you know about writing technique to a certain point right so same with nutrition same with strength and conditioning like at some point the writer needs to learn about this stuff to recognize what they're good or or need improving and then they can come up with a plan to improve it and it's no different for their mind

SPEAKER_01: 40:11

Thanks for listening, everybody. Paul and I get a lot out of this project, and we hope you do too. If you'd like to help us grow this show, check out our Patreon. By becoming a supporter, you can help us cover the cost of the show, as well as help us make this an exceptional show with great topics and insightful guests. You can find a link on our website, themountainbikecoachingpodcast.buzzsprout.com. Thanks, and let's get back to the show.

SPEAKER_02: 40:37

For you and your experience, I mean, what's your thoughts on that in terms of maybe a story or an experience you've had where you're either coaching someone or maybe you're racing and you feel like, you know, the, the thing that made the difference that day wasn't, it wasn't my bike or it wasn't my skill. It was, it was the head.

SPEAKER_01: 41:07

Yeah. Yeah. where to start with that one. Yeah. I mean,

SPEAKER_02: 41:09

there's probably like a billion examples, right? Like,

SPEAKER_01: 41:12

yeah. You know, that recently did a bucket list, big ride that I'm beginning into these, like we call big, dumb rides lately. And

SPEAKER_02: 41:22

I think you were telling me about this one. If it's the same one, then that sounds, that was a really big and dumb ride, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:29

Yeah. Yeah. But this did the, the mass net and ring of fire. as a full pole, which is, it's a single track loop of approximately 70 some miles in Northern Virginia. It's very, very rocky. But the way that my buddy and I approached it was we didn't want to research it too much. And we didn't want to make any modifications to our bike because we're going to go on a ride and we're going to do it. And the goal is to do it in under 24 hours, which I would just based on our kind of our fitness and the plan. I thought we could easily do that. If not like maybe 15 hours fastest known times, like 11, but

SPEAKER_02: 42:15

70 miles in

SPEAKER_01: 42:19

11, 11 hours. Yeah. Jesus.

SPEAKER_02: 42:23

Yeah. Rocky terrain. Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 42:24

Yeah. So the thing that became like, it was a physically one of the most demanding rides I've done. But the thing that made it absurd and took it to the next level was the mental weight of thinking that it was going to get easier and the kind of like the tricks that my mind was playing on myself, meaning that other people have done it in a shorter amount of time. At 10 hours in, we were only halfway done. at 10 hours, you know, and we had, we like kept expecting, surely it gets easier. Surely there's going to be this magical, like 12 mile downhill, you know, where we could just peel, peel back the miles, you know, and, and instead it was just a three mile an hour slog the entire way, you know, and it just in this, that being in that moment for that long, you know, and just wanting to wanting it not wanting to accept the reality of what it was made it infinitely harder

SPEAKER_00: 43:34

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 43:37

you know and that that not not just not accepting the fact that like this is just how it is yeah and this is what i need to do the mind

SPEAKER_02: 43:45

games

SPEAKER_01: 43:45

was was pretty was pretty yeah eye-opening and you know come to find out later later that um finishing it your first try is is out of the ordinary

SPEAKER_00: 43:57

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 43:58

Most people have ridden parts of it before they even attempt it. But I kept thinking about the psychological factors deep in the dark on that trail and how much the shifting... Once I did shift my mindset around, well, it might not change. It is the way that it is. I just got to put the effort in. And

SPEAKER_02: 44:22

that's it. It's almost like the decision-making becomes more simple because it's like, well... I can think about it and analyze it and problem solve it. But really at the end of the day, it's just do it and shut up or quit or quit, you know? And so which one am I going to, am I going to quit or I'm just going to do it and suck it up? And then, and then the decision making is almost very binary at that point. Yeah. And I, I, I mean that, that clicks with me because I, A lot of the time with this psychological component, pro riders arguably have more experience dealing with these decisions where there's a performance goal in mind and the performance goal always creates stress, whether it's an amateur rider or a pro rider. You're basically pushing yourself, like we talked about at the start of the show. You're doing something challenging. Anytime there's a performance goal in mind... you're gonna have that inherent stress. And if the psychological factor is the weaker of the six, my bike's good, I'm strong, I've got the skill, weather conditions are good that day, it's gonna start coming down to how do I overcome this challenge with the mind. because it's not one of the other things that's holding me back. And this is something I've always struggled with the most is sort of the psychological piece and knowing it's almost worse sometimes to know that like, man, I'm sitting on this$6,000,$7,000 bike. I've got no excuses. The bike's mint, right? It's a sunny day. The trail's good. I'm pretty strong. I know I'm a good rider and it's almost worse because then you're like, shit, like the only thing holding me back now I know is my head. And that sometimes is easier to deal with. Sometimes it's harder to deal with. And I struggle when I'm on lines that I've seen other riders do and I just can't, you know, one thing I struggle with is sort of visualizing the success. I'll inherently kind of visualize the crashing sometimes. But through practice and purpose and through some tools, I've been able to get slowly better at just doing that less. I still do it, but I do it less. And if it does happen, I don't get into the negative moments. mindset I don't go down that rabbit hole as far like I used to sort of get really wigged out at a line and then just sort of freak out and walk and then I would end up walking the rest of the trail and I get into this sort of mental window of oh my god I can't run everything everything's too scary whereas now I do that less often and if it does happen I might walk around a certain feature but then ride the rest of the trail and shrug it off, you know, kind of my mental resilience. I can bounce back to riding well after that. But it's little things like telling yourself, like, you've put in the work, you've got the skill, you've got the strength. The tactical piece really helps. You know, I try not to overanalyze by just saying, set up here, brake here, release the brakes, go. Or if it's a jump, like, I need to start pedaling here, pump that berm, tuck, two pedals. Whatever it is, just focusing on the little tactical tasks helps me just stay in the moment and helps me visualize success versus visualizing all the what-ifs. Because your brain will always want to do the what-ifs, right? So it's trying to ignore all the what-ifs and just focus on the what will be. And this is where the tactical component can come in. If you're quite good at understanding the tactics behind the situation, whether it's a race run or hitting a jump for the first time, if you can understand those tactics, the tactical component can actually help the psychological component, and those two can start kind of playing off each other. But, you know, I think it's sometimes... This sort of makes me think about, like... It's easy for us as amateurs to look at pros and be like, they're so good because they have all of this dialed. But if you talk to a pro, a lot of the time they have the same concerns, self-doubt that we have. It's just their performance level is so much higher and the goals they're trying to achieve is likewise higher. So they're in the same situation where they're doubting, can I do that? I was interested in watching a lot of the videos for... The Red Bull Hardline in Tasmania a couple months ago, last month. And just seeing some of the things they were saying. And if you haven't watched them, I recommend to the listeners, go watch some of those, whether it's Troy Brosnan's ones were good. There's a bunch of pros that kind of did video diaries of Red Bull Hardline in Tasmania. And it's cool. They're saying and And you can tell, they're kind of feeling the exact same things we all feel when we get to a new jump or a new drop or a new technical section. And they're probably having the exact same fears. It's just their drop is 50 feet and our drop is 10 feet. But at that point in moment, these performance factors are all showing up and they are... They're probably having that same conversation. I'm good enough. My bike's mint. I'm strong enough. But I just don't know if I can hit that gap. It's purely that mental thing, right? So what do they do? They start going through the tactics. They start going through some sort of mindset. They're going to have a structured process in place. They'll have a tactical process in place to just sort of problem solve and work through it. So I think that's where, in a way, like... amateurs and pros we're all doing the same thing we're all having the same challenges um but arguably for them it's just the challenge level is a lot higher than our challenge level um yeah

SPEAKER_01: 50:46

makes me think about how again psychological and tactical are are They're all, they're all, everything's intertwined here, but those, those two, there's, there's a nice connection between, between those two that I think, again, the tactical can be used to help train the psychological. So for instance, the first time that my boys rode filthy ape.

SPEAKER_02: 51:14

Oh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 51:15

The, the, the pro line in Whistler. Was that with me? That

SPEAKER_02: 51:19

was with me? Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. That was fun.

SPEAKER_01: 51:23

Yeah. Yeah. But there was a bit of a master class in like psychological management that day because they had ridden by that rock, you know, countless times.

SPEAKER_00: 51:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 51:37

You know, and seeing people and, you know, Silas, my oldest, was like, I think I want to do that. Like you kind of see him. You kind of see it before he said it. Yeah. And I remember... We did a lot of laps that day, but you kept making us go on some of the smaller rock rolls that are near it. There's one that's steeper, but it's shorter. And then there's that one on the Oakland Island that's on the backside that's really rough.

SPEAKER_02: 52:14

I call it a mini rampage, but I can't actually remember the name of it. But yeah, the back of the Oakland Island. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 52:21

Yeah. But just... the tactics were, we're going to ride these, you know, really challenging roles numerous times in the vicinity of this other one, you know, until, until, you know, people are ready to do it, you know, until like they, they can, they can see themselves doing that. So this, the tactic for me that, that day was really was, was more about, um, the psychological preparedness of, of standing on top of, of the ape. And, you know, you know, and for me as a parent, you know, standing there, you know, like you're,

SPEAKER_02: 52:59

it's,

SPEAKER_01: 52:59

it's, it's, you know, it's the definition of performance. Like it's, can you do, can you do what needs to get done when it matters the most?

SPEAKER_02: 53:07

Yeah. That's cool. Cause, cause with that long rock roll too, it's like, you can't, you have to do it. You can't, once you're in, You have to execute because you can't stop. You can't back out. And you can't screw something up because the GR at the bottom can be pretty messy. But I remember that day and that happens a lot with coaching and my coaching in Whistlebike Park because a lot of the time you're setting them up technically and tactically to warm up to a bigger feature. But so much of it is managing the mindset and the psychological because if you over-prepare, you ultimately end up making out that the filthy ape is this massive jump. And then psychologically that's gonna instill fear because they're like, oh my God, this is such a big step. Or he's making us do all of this stuff. Filthy ape must be crazy gnarly. So in a way you're trying to prepare them whilst also downplaying the actual feature that you're warming up to whether it's a drop or a rock roll a jump it's it's that fine balance of just managing the preparation but not too much preparation that you set themselves out and then uh maybe what did you notice with my voice and my um That would be kind of cool to talk about my voice and the time we spent when we actually got to the top of Filthy Ape that day. And for the listeners that don't know, Filthy Ape is like, what would you say, a 30-foot rock roll?

SPEAKER_01: 54:39

It's

SPEAKER_02: 54:39

big.

SPEAKER_01: 54:40

It's big enough that when you're standing on top, the farthest you can go, you can't see the middle of it. It goes almost vertical for a bit. You

SPEAKER_02: 54:49

definitely can't see the bottom until you're halfway down it.

SPEAKER_01: 54:53

Yeah. And, but you can, I mean, it's, you could watch person after person go down it and if, you know, it's funny

SPEAKER_02: 55:01

how many people do it these days, like 10 years ago, hardly anyone used to do it 15 years ago, but it's like little kids are doing it these days. It's nuts.

SPEAKER_01: 55:14

Yeah. Yeah. And you see, you get a chance to see like people execute really smoothly and you get to see it, you see blown up wheels, you know, and, and like, close calls, you know, enough people are doing it. But anyway, one of the things I remember from the buildup was a sense of fun and the progression, you know, like this, you know, we're, we're going to ride these other, other roles because they're fun. And we really, we enjoy doing this. And so there was, there was never this sense that like, we have to, we have to go, The boys have to go ride this feature. It's fun. But I, yeah, very emphatically remember standing on top of that and, you know, you not saying a whole lot. Yeah. And the words that really stuck out that I use quite often now in coaching is look at it, but don't look at it too long and think about it, but don't think about it too much.

UNKNOWN: 56:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 56:19

Yeah. Yeah. And then just get on and do it. Or don't do it.

SPEAKER_01: 56:25

Or don't, yeah, get on and do it. Or don't do it. Yeah, but you're not allowed to stay up

SPEAKER_02: 56:29

there for too long.

SPEAKER_01: 56:31

No, you're not going to, no. You know, and then, so Jude, my youngest, didn't do it until the next year. And I kind of went through the same process with him. And it took him quite a while to see himself doing it and to want to do it. But it was that same process. We're going to stand up here. We'll look at it. but we're not going to stay up here, you know, and we're going to get, you know, you can, well, you can't even do a roll in on that one. You just have to, you get, you have to, you have to either do it or

SPEAKER_02: 57:00

you can't do anything else.

SPEAKER_01: 57:04

Yeah. Yeah. But that, you know, that part of the coaching, the coaching process becomes, um, it's a very purposeful, purposefully, um, Yoda-like in a sense. There is no try,

SPEAKER_02: 57:20

there's only do.

SPEAKER_01: 57:22

Yeah. And I think that that sometimes gets mistaken for anybody can go do that. Anybody can coach like that. Like, oh, just, you just do it. We see that quite a bit with buddies, you know, like just, you know, they haven't actually gone through an intentional process and the downside that

SPEAKER_02: 57:45

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01: 57:47

The downside there is that it may work, but how many times out of 10 is it going to work?

SPEAKER_02: 57:53

Yeah. Yeah. Is it repeatable as a coaching process?

SPEAKER_01: 57:58

Yeah. And like with that, with that rock rolling specifically, like it has to be a 10 out of 10. Like you can't, it can't be nine out of 10.

SPEAKER_02: 58:08

Yeah, totally. And I think, I think we talk about this in coaching a lot, but when to spot people or not spot people, that's clearly a feature you can't spot them on anyway. But I'm a big believer of not really spotting people unless you absolutely have to for some weird reason, but really empowering riders to make decisions themselves and ride the future on their own when they're ready. What that does for me as a coach is it makes sure that, like you said, the process building up to that is 98% of the process. And then the last 2% is just going to that bigger feature and then essentially ticking it off. But at that point, you've done all the mental, technical, physical homework. And it's now just, well, let's do it or not. And If you're spending too long on that feature, you just haven't done enough homework. So the goal is that through your coaching day, it's the same with a jumps lesson. The last 10% of a jumps lesson is actually getting air. The 90% before it is learning how to pump through corners and to stay centered and deal with all these forces and manage the timing. Anyway, going back to the rock roll, the key thing is look at it, but don't look at it for too long. Same thing, think about it a little bit. What's your tactics? Like I usually just say, start here, break until this point, go slowly until this point as much as you can, and then let it off and be ready for the compression at the bottom. So break, release, brace. You know, three words, right? Break, release, brace for the compression at the bottom. Break, release, brace. I'll give you a demo. choose to do it. Great. If you don't, that's cool. Just walk down, but you've got like, I'm going to give you a two minute window. Stay up here. And the whole idea with that is that it, um, it gets them to focus on the tactics the psychological and they choose their challenge so they don't feel pressured because the the pressure of having to execute is what increases a lot of the time the the fear and the stress and and kind of makes that psychological factor overwhelm everything else right and then the performance gets worse so taking away the stress is key well choose to do the drop or or not it's totally cool but if you're gonna do it let's do it and if not we can do it tomorrow or we can do it after lunch but right now in this moment we're not going to hang out here for too long and then the upside of that is when they're successful they feel so empowered because they weren't pressured to do it they were given the choice to not do it And they weren't kind of spotted. They weren't babysat. We didn't talk about it forever. We basically just said, hey, here's a couple little tactical points. I'll show you how that's rolled. And so the success almost means a lot more in that process. And then if they, yeah, like Jude did, he came back the next year and did it and that's fine too. But either way, we're not going to build this thing into this massive, unachievable feat just because it's 10 feet longer than the last rock roll you did. Technically, the fact that it's 10 feet higher means nothing. It's just purely psychological. So you do it this year or next year, who cares, right? I think what I've tried to get better at is A, coaching people through that process to technically... prepare them but to manage that psychological window and i think this is what pros are basically through more experience and training they are better at self-managing that psychological window keeping their mind in the right window of i'm excited and focused but i'm not scared apprehensive anxious and now i'm riding stiff and tense and making mistakes or i'm not engaged at all i'm not focused enough i'm too relaxed there needs to be this sort of this happy window of excitement and focus and we talk about all the time with engagement like if a lesson is too hard people shut down if a lesson is too easy people get bored and shut down there needs to be kind of this happy excitement window and it's exactly the same for this higher performance level where people are trying more difficult terrain there is a consequence there is a kind of a execute or don't do it side to the equation um you know gap jumps a classic example you either do it or you don't you can't half do a gap jump that doesn't mean it's technically hard but psychologically just because there's no margin of error or small margin of error it you know that's where we just need to as a coach keep them in that that happy window excited and focused but not too scared and too shut down often i'll try and quantitate the fear like if there's too much fear i'm We go into this kind of anxiety window. That's where we ride stiff or we doubt ourselves. A little bit of fear is good because a little bit of fear can easily be relabeled as excitement and positive energy. So there's sort of a little bit of fear is actually quite healthy. You just have to relabel it. But as a coach or as a rider, you've got to recognize, is this a healthy amount of fear that I can relabel into, hey, let's get it done. This is kind of scary, but I think I got it. Versus I'm kind of quietly shitting my pants and I just can't visualize the success and I'm really scared I'm going to get hurt. Well, if I'm feeling like that mentally, I'm not doing it. And if I can't get... back to that happy window of like fear excitedness happy if I can't get back there mentally I'm not going to do it because that's where the psychological opponent I know I will ride too stiff I will ride too slow I'll put the brakes on at the last minute I don't trust myself in that mental space but I do trust myself in sort of a little bit of fear excited sort of excited nervous energy giggling a little bit like that i trust myself in that phase i know i can perform in that phase right and it would be the same for your riders so yeah i think that's what's cool about all these performance factors is it just as a coach especially for us it opens up the door to helping our riders in so many different ways beyond just the the body position or the, the breaking skills. And that all ties back together as well. Like one thing we haven't really talked about is the physical side, like partly why I think pro riders, the technique is so strong is obviously the training and the years and years and years of, of, you know, the 10,000 hours, the 20,000 hours of doing the sport, the techniques are clearly going to evolve, but the strength is huge and, for a rider to stay centered through a berm at 50k an hour you have to be really strong otherwise the forces will collapse your legs or you'll get pushed back or the bike will accelerate forward you can't hold on right so the strength and the conditioning will actively support the technique and vice versa too right like sometimes I think a lot of experienced coaches can have really good technique and there's actually a detriment because we don't have to be as strong because we've learned to be so efficient with coaching so many hours a day in the bike park or in the valley so we get to be really fluid smooth efficient riders but we don't have the same strength so when it you know I definitely find when I try and race that it's rarely my bike holding me back because I love bike setup so I'm sure there's things I can improve my bike setup especially my suspension but it's that's the thing not holding me back the technique's not holding me back it's for sure for me it is my strength my technique goes out the window when I'm racing and it's not because my technique's bad it's because I'm just tired and I've lost I've lost that strength right so for me the physical one is huge and it's what's cool is how those who come together and make the psychological factor. Like we all know it, when we feel fit and strong, and then we know we're riding technically well, like man, the confidence, the mental side, the psychological side just suddenly. And that's where it's kind of like a vicious cycle or a positive cycle with these performance factors. You improve one or two of them, that starts to build, those areas of strength actually start to build strength in the other areas of weakness but vice versa too sometimes the areas of weakness can start to infiltrate the other ones right so it's just trying to control these six factors and making sure that the strengths are building up the weaknesses and not the other way around okay so we just wanted to take a quick break to say thanks for listening and if you're a writer or coach out there and you have an idea for a topic or future episode feel free to let us know through the comments on our Instagram page at Donuts and Bikes. We're always happy to hear your suggestions from our listeners on what we do or ways to make the podcast better. Thanks, team. Let's get back to the show.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:44

You know, on the physical side, on the other end of the spectrum, your average Joes, riders, I think the physical aspect physical strength and conditioning matter a great deal. You know, for a newer rider, you know, struggling on a climb, is it their technique or is it their strength? You know, and in a lot of cases, you know, on, you know, trails here, especially in Western North Carolina, they're technical, like you need a certain amount of strength to be able to execute in technical terrain, right? And if you don't have that, then it's going to make it dramatically harder for you. Yeah. And so having that certain baseline of fitness for all riders is obviously really important. But I think especially for average Joes, those that have the strength are probably more easily able to enjoy that. the technical side.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:53

Yeah, totally. This kind of makes me think of Annie Ford. She recently in Queenstown did that downhill world record of I think it was like 24 hours or something of however many verticals she could get in 24 hours. It's a pretty cool video listening to what they did with her equipment um and her training that she did to sort of get through obviously just you know non-stop lap after lap after lap of the bike park um and and that's where a lot of that stuff came together too and um it's it's pretty cool like i think for some examples like she she doesn't weigh much but she put on she kind of basically overbraked the bike like big calipers, you know, the new Maven brakes. And just so that she could basically squeeze less hard on the levers. So obviously that's going to add up over 24 hours or whatever. And things like the suspension was a lot softer. And so it's interesting there where her performance goal was very unique. It was like more about the distance and the efficiency rather than kind of all out speed. And again, how that would, again, these sort of six performance factors, how they're going to change based on what is the specific performance goal in mind. And that understanding the relationship between the goals and the performance factors and how that will affect it. You know, a goal for a lot of coaches is an outright speed. A goal for a lot of coaches is efficiency because we ride so much. So we need to be comfortable. We need to save energy. We need to look good and have good technique. So that's a different sort of definition of performance versus, say, like a racer who's essentially their definition of performance is just all-out speed, whether it's an hour cross-country race or a downhill race. Efficiency is a part of it, comfort is a part of it, but primarily their goal is speed, whereas for us it's like efficiency and comfort are probably a much bigger goal pieces than all out speed, right? Yeah. Interesting times. And I, you know, I was listening to a podcast the other day with that, I think it was Aaron Gwynn, you know, and they were talking about his bike. And I thought that was a good example of like when he was newer in the circuit, people often commented how much, or how little his suspension moves, especially his fork, like how stiff it was. But then how kind of unusual that was. But it always struck me how he was often like, well, it doesn't really feel that stiff to me. It just kind of feels good. He obviously recognized that they were stiff relative to others. But I think for him, bringing in his moto background, his strength and conditioning program, He was arguably the strongest rider on the circuit when he was dominating. So he's going faster. And if you're stronger and you're going faster, you're going to need a stiffer fork. But if a stiffer fork, you know, a really stiff fork hitting a bump at 60k an hour versus a softer fork hitting a bump at 40k an hour, they're actually going to feel pretty similar. So... The car park test tells you it's stiffer, but the car park test isn't taking into account the speed that that fork is being ridden at versus the other one and who's holding onto the handlebars that the fork is attached to, right? So maybe Aaron Gwin's bike arguably felt similar to the way my bike feels for me at a third of the speed, right? Because we're still looking for similar speed. things in some ways well grip stability you know

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:06

cool how about we wrap this up with um the technical skills

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:13

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:14

themselves

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:15

yeah totally

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:16

so our biomechanics and our actual our writing skills um yeah so for a pro a pro writer um Interesting. Talking to pro riders, listening and talk about their skills. Often you'll hear them say things like, well, I don't think about it too much.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:38

Yeah. You know, and for our average Joes that we're training on, on, you know, in coaching scenarios, it's often a lot of what we focus on is, you know, putting language to stability, to balance, to how we scan the trail, et cetera. Yeah. Right. So what do you think the main difference there between those riders, the pro riders that aren't really thinking about it and the, you know, this, the, those on the other end?

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:07

Yeah, that's a really good question, man. It was interesting, like talking to Nico recently, cause you know, and it's common, like you said, with a lot of pros, how they, they say that they don't think about it too much, or you can tell that they, they think about it, but, but obviously not the, in the same depth that we think about it as skills coaches. And sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. It kind of just depends on the athlete. But at that point, the technical level is so high, more often than not, another one of the performance factors is probably the one that is arguably holding them back. But having said that, as skills coaches, we still see a lot of cross-country athletes, junior athletes that are, and less these days, but a little bit more in the past, definitely some of the female downhill athletes. And I would say even with the male downhill athletes, as soon as you get out the top, I would say 30 to 40, you start, you know, we don't really see that these days, but when there were like 60 or 80 people at a World Cup, you would definitely start to see those technique deficiencies. So even at the World Cup level, we can see technical deficiencies on quite a lot of the athletes. Although, like I say, these days it's getting pretty darn polished at the top there. But for them, because they are so strong technically, they inherently look outwardly for... How can I get better? Well, I can get stronger. I can eat better, sleep better. I can get my mind in a better place. I can make sure I stay more positive or more confident, or I can set up my bike better or make better tactical choices. So they invariably tend to go to the other performance factors, which I think for some athletes makes sense because their technique is so good. But I think at that level, definitely, because there isn't the culture of technical skills coaching at a World Cup level just yet, they feel like, and we even touched on that a little bit with Nico, they feel like still there's a little bit of the culture of technique is right or wrong. And as a World Cup rider, they're like, well, my technique is awesome, obviously, because it is. I don't really have anything to quote-unquote correct myself. But at that level of riding, technique isn't right or wrong. It's more just, it almost becomes tactical at that point. There's different ways to push into a berm, different body positions you could try, different, you know, do you want to use counter rotation or rotation into that berm depending on your line choice? Like at that level, if you have more technical awareness, you can find that half percent, that 1%. Because it's not right or wrong, it's just A or B at that point. And you're going through this corner and you keep doing A, but that rider over there is doing B. Why don't you try doing technique B instead of technique A and see if in that situation it's half a second quicker. Or maybe it's not quicker, but it's more efficient. And if you do that a few more times, maybe you'll save better energy on that section without reducing speed. So I think the technical... component kind of again becomes different because their technical skills for pro riders so much generally so much higher but then you look for the amateur rider and and that's definitely something that shines pretty bright as most amateur riders there's there's pretty Even for us, for sure, there's technical deficiencies that show up fairly clearly. And if you had to argue, of the six performance factors, which one of the six or which two of the six is the biggest difference between us and a pro? And I would say it would be the technique and the physical. They're the two biggest ones. Because most of the time we're riding bikes that are essentially a World Cup pro. could take could obviously tune it a little bit but probably still do quite well they're not going to win a world cup probably but they're certainly able to ride a lot faster than me like I always look at what's the thing that's holding me back it's not my bike someone can ride my bike way faster than I ride my bike so that's not what's holding me back whereas if you look at say Loic Bruni no one can ride his bike faster than him right So the only way for Loic to get quicker is to make his bike faster. So that's where it's sort of different there. Because I was saying something the other day, it's like, well, you could arguably get Loic to change some technique or consider some other alternatives like we were just talking about, and potentially he could get quicker. For sure he could, but I think he is so fast and so strong, and it's the same for a lot of workout riders, that... they are that fast and they are that good that it is genuinely the technique that's holding them back. And if you design him a faster bike, he will go faster, which is obviously the evolution of the sport and what we're seeing. But if you give me a faster bike, a better bike, I might go a little bit quicker, but really the thing that's holding me back the most is I'm not strong enough. If I want to get 5% quicker, I'm not going to try and get a better bike. I should just start working out more if you want lowick to get five percent quicker it's going to be the best place to go is going to be the bike right um because he is that fit and he is that strong is the same for finn and and a lot of those guys or valley hull like she's she's unreal on a bike she's so strong her technique is so good it probably makes the most sense just to give her a faster bike And then she can stay on the same kind of training regime and just focus on that. But, yeah, I think the average Joe, I mean, for you, like, you've got some sweet bikes. Like, do you ever feel like it's the bike holding you back? Like, what do you feel is holding you back as a rider the most out of these six performance factors?

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:27

Strength is definitely part of it as well as the mental side. Yeah. I feel like I've got an internal speed limit in my mind, you know. But definitely not my bike.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:43

Definitely not my bike. Although I've been riding clipped in exclusively, which we'll talk about in a future episode. But that's had a pretty dramatic impact on my riding.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:57

For better or?

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:59

For better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:00

And so you feel like you're gaining something from the equipment piece at the moment.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:05

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:07

Yeah, and that's it. I'm sure a lot of us sort of average riders, we can get better by better equipment for sure. But I think the ceiling to that is limited. You keep improving our bike, it will get to a point where it's no longer the bike. It is literally just because we're too old and eating too many donuts kind of thing or don't do enough training or push-ups. Right. for most of the average rider, it's, it's the, the bike for sure can improve, but the, the real improvement is fitness and strength and skill essentially. Like one thing I'm always really impressed with Ross is his braking control and steep terrain is, I think, you know, it's up there with your own Borelli and he might not admit to that, but he has this finesse with his braking control that is just so cool. And, And it makes it look so easy. And that's definitely a technical weakness for me. I try and sort of emulate what he does on the same terrain and I'm not as smooth and I'm skidding a bit too much or I'm more jerky and it just shines a bright light on it straight away. I'm like, compared to Russ, the thing that's holding me back right there is not my bike because we pretty much have the same bikes. It's my arms because half the size is his. And... it's my breaking skill, right? It's my technique and my physical condition.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:31

Well, so Ross, Ross rides steep stuff all the time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:36

Yeah. Yeah. He, he, all the time. Yeah. He's good at it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:40

But the bigger question and to wrap us up here is how many donuts per week does Ross eat?

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:48

Not enough.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:50

Yeah. I have to get him on to defend himself here sometime. Yeah. paul this has been a fascinating um lens to view the performance factors through really enjoyed uh discussing the pros versus joes uh in the light of these these six factors

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:11

yeah it's uh it's a good one thanks man i appreciate that the conversation and

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:16

uh

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:17

Yeah, hopefully it was fun for the listeners. It's always just us kind of geeking out on topics, and hopefully they can gain a little something from that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:29

Do you have a donut story? I do have a donut story, actually,

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:33

but I feel like I did. Did I do the last one? I can't remember. I think you did. We need to get more organized with the donut stories. Do you have one? Okay, you go on. I'll save mine because I actually have one, but I'll save it for the next one.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:48

Okay. So it's been a bit back now, but my oldest son is in college and his bunch of his college riding buddies went and camped out recently out in the National Forest to go so they could go get an early start to a ride. It was a big group of them. They all Got a great camping spot. But anyway, I was really, really pleased that I was invited to go along on the ride part with them, which is kind of a bit of a little victory. Not getting left out of, you know, kind of fun

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:29

riding. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:30

But these are all kids that I've been riding with since they were, you know, young teenagers. You know, and I'm the old guy. Now I go and tag along. So I stopped by the grocery store and got the big box of Krispy Kreme donuts. Mm-hmm. And it was a cold, cold day. And I, I, um, just the glazed, just, you know, the plain Krispy Kreme glazed and cold day. And I, I drove down there with the, the heat, the heat on the floorboards with the box of donuts down there. So the, you know, cause the best Krispy Kremes are fresh, hot now, you know, right out of the, right out of the store. They're hot, you know, not cold and dense. So anyway, I showed up to this camp, you know, bunch of teenage boys have been camped out. There's sleeping bags everywhere. And, you know, it was like a bomb had gone off yard sale, you know, and as I walk in, walk in with this, you know, big, big thing of donuts and they're all freaking out. But, um, um, really, um, really wonderful way to like eat a donut with a bunch of guys, a bunch of kids getting ready to go, go ride. Um, However, I think the donuts backfires. It gave them a lot of energy. They wouldn't, this is their first ride of the big ride of the season. They wanted to go do with a 35 miler out in Pisgah. It, things went well for like the first, you know, probably seven to nine miles, you know, and then the wheels

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:55

kind

SPEAKER_01: 1:25:55

of came off, you know, I was like, all right guys, we, you know, if you're going to go ride this, this long, this, this far, we don't, you don't go to a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:07

Right out of the gate. Like you got to pace yourselves.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:11

That's funny. I mean, joking aside, that is something I've noticed I've got much better at as I get older is just the nutrition side, like long rides now, chill codons and stuff, like eight, nine plus hour rides. And, you know, I noticed that my performance is pretty good at the end of the ride. And it's... And I'm riding with people I know are fitter than me. And I think a lot of that's just experience and knowing when to eat and how to eat and recognizing how important nutrition is on that stuff. So that's maybe a last example there of young riders versus old riders is hopefully the older riders have figured out nutrition and how to eat properly because it does make a huge difference. Even now, if I know I'm climbing for an hour or more, I'll eat something half an hour in, just some nibbles, and I'm starting to notice how much of a difference that can make to a two-hour ride. A lot of us go on two-hour rides, right? That's pretty common. So just eating properly for exercising for two hours. So Google that. There's tons of really cool info on that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:17

Right on. We'll leave it there for next time. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:19

sounds good. Awesome.

UNKNOWN: 1:27:21

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:24

All right, that brings us to the end of another episode of Donuts and Bikes. We hope this conversation elevated your understanding of the performance factors as they relate to ordinary Joes like us and their professionals. We like to think that riding bikes isn't rocket science. It's really more about the pros and cons rather than the wrongs and rights. Please take care if you're using any of this information discussed in this episode, and you can find our full disclaimer at our website, themountainbikecoachingpodcast.buzzsprout.com. Stay safe. Write smart, coach smarter, and we'll see you next time.